Episode 16: Do you prefer to work in a team or alone?

Sebastian: You're also fed up with scammy online marketing gurus who give you superficial suggestions as a way to promise success?

Niels: As self-employed online marketers who call the Daily Grinder their absolute comfort zone, we've made it our mission to expose the online marketing bullshit.

Sebastian: With us you get the unfiltered truth about the current state of the online marketing world and which strategies really work. In each episode, your hosts Niels Stuck and Sebastian Vock present new online marketing topics, such as SEO, Facebook Ads, Content and much more, to take your online marketing success to the next level. (Music.) Morning Niels.

Niels: Morning Sebastian.

Sebastian: Glad you're here, we have another new episode of no pushed online marketing podcast. And today with an exciting topic, we have just talked about it, a bit longer. What is it about today Niels?

Niels: Today we wanted to discuss the topic of self-employment, and whether you go the way rather alone, or whether you go in a team and what are the advantages and disadvantages of both ways, because in a sense we have each gone one way up to a certain point. I namely tend to be alone for quite a long time. I worked on my entire part alone, and Sebastian very quickly integrated a team. And that's why the comparison is definitely quite interesting. Where do we start?

Sebastian: I would just say, let's start with the classic. When you start your own business, you're not necessarily alone, but if you just assume, especially in the service sector, you start as a freelancer in quotation marks and just work for companies and do contract work. What would you say Niels, in your experience now, you have also slowly built up a team, but the time, just when we worked together, relatively much that was yes also One Man Show quasi. What do you think are the advantages of that?

Niels: I think that, as I have now experienced, integrating a team and having to distribute tasks and work with people is something completely different. You don't just have your task in front of you that you have to solve. When you set up your own business in a particular area, you're trained to solve problems and work on them, and you have your own processes. And as soon as it goes a bit into management, into managing people, into giving information, it's completely different.

So that's how I've experienced it now, it's great fun. I'm glad I took that step now too. But it has been a huge difference for me, from just working, hours, hours, hours every month. And for X customers and handling everything alone to handing over tasks, controlling, more or less, allowing mistakes, being able to hand over topics, and, and, and. Or how have you experienced this now in your practice?

Sebastian: Yes, if I now go to the, you just mentioned advantages of the ... #00:03:29#, if I now go to advantages of very short team. Then I would just say, yes you just get more volume. Sure, so the closest, the more people, the more hours, the more revenue and hopefully the more profit. Because you never know, of course, if the people also cost money, that you also have a good margin on it. So on the one hand, of course, but most of all, in my opinion, better service for the client at the end. Not better service, but good service for the client. Just because someone does something well doesn't mean it's bad. So that one says now, one needs now the other things. But you have to get someone in for each topic. If you are now in an (?agent) company, you are in (?residential) advertising, Google, Facebook, Bing, Amazon, whatever. Then you need four different people at the end, for example. That's why I can see that there are some great advantages, of course. But if you now want to go further to the disadvantage?

Niels: I want to briefly, yes, yes, let's briefly compare. Because I also went into it a bit at the beginning, what the change was. But the advantages that I saw were really that you just really have to take care of yourself. You only have to take care of yourself, you have a clear idea of what tasks you are doing, how long you will need something, because you know the subject. And you're not really dependent on others and don't have to somehow control tasks, control results. It's a clearly structured process, but you go through it on your own and that's usually after a certain point, there's a cap. You can't scale that well. I had a point where I worked over 200 hours a month. And there you also earn well, but so stress technically it is then difficult at some point and you do not really get higher. Because if you have scaling in your head, at a certain point you can't do it alone, because you can't divide yourself into four parts. A person can only work certain hours.

Sebastian: Sedat already told me at the beginning, from 10K revenue per month as a freelancer, if you don't have really, really crass hourly rates, you come to the cap. So it's really a point where it's very difficult to get more out of it now. So that's a rule of thumb, I would say. If you are now in the service agency model. All right, what are the disadvantages of that, other than the cap, what else would you say?

Niels: I think it also gets monotonous very quickly at some point. I think a team can definitely bring in a greater fun factor, bring in variety, bring in new tasks and then you just don't have all that somehow when you work alone. It's fun at the beginning, as long as it scales somehow, I'll say in the spectrum, as long as it somehow becomes more. As long as some of the tasks are new, you have cool projects, cool customers, that's fun. But at a certain point, it's not really new anymore. Maybe you don't notice the growth anymore, not necessarily only monetarily, but also in terms of tasks and challenges. And I think that's a problem.

Sebastian: There are people like Thomas Taler, for example, who says he does everything on his own. He is a one-man-show and used to have 80 employees. You know, I think this difference is just another blatant level. If you simply, as you already said, you are just independent and just have this absolute peace and quiet a bit from all the surrounding. Because you know yourself, I know how it can be in an agency and if you are a large agency, then there is a lot going on and you need a lot of organization so that the thing is somehow profitable. So let's talk about the disadvantages of the team. So clearly the cost factor, the people cost money, if you hire people and hire more people, then it also costs real money. Then you also need orders, quite honestly Niels, if you are now a solo entrepreneur, solopreneur, if you want to call it that. And you do your stuff and have a month a little less cash, does not hurt you much now, because then you still have the things from the last few months.

Niels: Almost no fixed costs, another advantage, let's add that one.

Sebastian: In any case, as long as you have now not, no idea what leased so. In ... #00:08:29#, or Schwabingen Mitte wohnenst. So for 3 K rent a month, whatever. So the fixed costs, if you hold that, so the classic style with employees costs money. You can definitely count on three to four thousand euros, which you have to pay, per month, safe. And that's money, you have to have that. So that is, and you must also have that every month ideally, because otherwise it will be difficult at some point.

Now it is of course so, as Freelancing made a lot and has proven itself with me very much. So Freelancing is by the independence of course a very flexible business model, because I'm not so strong, so I'm dependent on the person, but I could also just say goodbye so in quotation marks, if you have no Bock now, or if you just have no more orders. Is of course an advantage, but disadvantage lies just with the whole model in it, as you have already said, the organization quickly escalates really fat. So managing times. For example, hours, time recording. That's already once, so how long I sit at the end of the month, for my bills, to carry everything together, that already knocks. So that's already a decent level of hours that goes into it, and it's something you can't underestimate.

Then, of course, prep management, because we are not yet so big that you have two prep managers who coordinate their work. Of course prep management is done by me, for example, or you do it for your area, and the other person does it for the other area. But to really have that in a central position, you need someone else that you hire or shepherd. That means, the more complexity comes in, the more structure you need and the structures cost money again. This means, of course, that it becomes a company more and more quickly, which simply does not explode in fixed costs, but in any case increases more and more the more you scale. Because the only option is just, except just hourly rate, but let's assume that is already pretty out gemaxt. Then you just don't have that many options besides hiring people.

That's why, yes, I've also had painful experiences there. You know yourself, Niels, what can happen when you do all kinds of things, so to speak. Well, we don't do everything, but we do a lot in online marketing, websites, stores, SEO, SEA, also Amazon, Facebook of course, the full program. And sometimes also things that you should rather not have said, that you do at least. Even if you could, sometimes you just have a fail, then you're just dependent on the software and it doesn't work. And then you just fucked up. That's why that can happen, of course. But that's just the problem when you try to do more, to offer that and then maybe you can't deliver that.

Niels: Yes, and I think an important point is that it makes a huge, huge difference whether you have these fixed costs, which go hand in hand with the fact that you need more projects, which go hand in hand with the fact that you have more communication and management effort. And that's just another intense stress factor, I'd say, or that's just a completely different task. At some point you don't get to do your own work. So that was a huge point for me before I got myself a small team. When I had a lot of customer meetings, a lot of communication, a lot of calls, a lot of video meetings. I always had in the back of my mind, fuck I don't even get to my own work. So that then has been a huge stressor for me in my head. I still have so much on the table and I talk about it all the time. But that's the way it has to be, because this coordination effort is part and parcel of projects and customers. Especially when it comes to a higher number or a higher volume. And that has taken a lot of pressure off me, because I now have people who can take over certain tasks. And I can definitely imagine that with you as well. So I'm definitely more relaxed in appointments now and that's also just a good feeling to know, okay, even if I'm not fully on the ball right now, it's going ahead. So even when I'm, I don't know, not at home. I have an appointment with a customer away from home. Or yes, not the best day, I don't know. That's good in any case, but it balances out a little bit with, you have to dig in a little bit more, or you have more to do. I don't know, what's your perception of that?

Sebastian: Yes, absolutely, and the most important point, which we haven't even talked about yet, is having good people in the first place. Really good people are the basis for a successful team. And we are lucky, both with us and with you, that we simply have great people. So we really started with good people right from the beginning. So right now Lena, for example, supports me ultra in Facebook Advertising, both Creative, since I work with Lena, or also because she now starts permanently, it is of course once again a level that you could not offer before, is so. Therefore, yes in any case Lena is like that. What kind of level we have there is something else again, of course it's more coordination effort. I have quite often calls with Lena, we often go through the accounts, but it is once again. YOU can work on it again on another level. It's a little bit more in-depth once again. One person is more operational, the other is more strategic. And you just pass the balls to each other and then you know, okay, we can still work on that, we can do that even better. But yes, operationally cool, those are also cool ideas. You just get new thought processes a little bit.

New thought processes, that helps you just also in the development of such accounts I find extremely. Because if you're always in the same account yourself, especially in advertising, and no one else is looking in, then at some point you're so caught up in your thought process and you no longer look at the account objectively. That's what I noticed in performance advertising, for example, when you take a second look, when you have another set of eyes on it, it definitely helps you to improve the account once again. That is really very, very helpful. And therefore, which is perhaps there now completely meaningfully, we already addressed before completely briefly, if stop such a task is delivered, how do I go now as in quotation marks managing director then with it. Am I now mega (?anal) and now look at everything ultra, ultra, ultra exactly and check it again. How much can I trust my people, also back to good people and am I now somehow caught in micro management then. What is micro management is?

Niels: Okay, I think I can now practically take a turn, because I had the feeling that you did this very well from the beginning and have topics in which you are now not 100 percent. You understand everything you're doing, so you can grasp it all. But things where you say, okay, someone is better at it, you've done that very well from the beginning and you've also given people a little bit of room. Okay, what would you do, how would you solve it? And if that sounded good, you tried it. Then it either worked or it didn't. And I think that's a smart approach because I've noticed with myself that especially with my own issues I tend to be a little bit like, okay I'm going to do this the same way and I want others to do it as well. And maybe they can't do it in that way yet and then I check it quite often and then I always interfere, but that's actually bad. So now I've slowly come to give the people more space. Accepting ideas and since then everything works much better. So I think that is really difficult in many areas and also in many companies and the people perform badly and the company deforms worse because of this fucking micro management. Because you're always wasting your own time, which you could be putting into your own project or something else, with this always checking and you're also holding up the other person. So you waste double and triple time.

Sebastian: I think it also has more to do with the fact that you want to get your conviction through. So because there is on the one hand, clear if a thing works for me and I say, if I set up my look alike so, that makes so, then the thing works. Yes mostly, or now is but so, other people do it maybe differently. But now it doesn't mean that it's wrong. But if I start to discuss it in a blatant way, or something. Then I can actually do the process myself. So just a short example, if a customer for example sours it out to you and work together as an agency, micro manage it with you. Then he spends money on the agency and in the end they could do it themselves, because they are constantly discussing it themselves. Accordingly, I think it is important to know what I should look at and what is simply a topic that you should simply observe and see how it goes. And in the time then just times perhaps questioned. That doesn't mean that I'm being questioned.

Niels: I think what also plays into it a lot is, in your case now, you've got people who are already pretty good in their subject. So those already in your, very focused on their niche, in my case now, I'm kind of a fan of teaching people that so little by little. So whether you buy people in or you breed them out, I'll say that now. And I think there is then partly maybe a little bit more management of course necessary. In that case, if you bring in professionals for a topic, then of course not so much. But I think there is also once again a difference, we can certainly weigh in another podcast times with someone quite well, whether one should build the people together, makes them professionals, or whether one brings in professionals. Because there we have certainly soon a contact who has made good experiences with it. Already a little teaser for the next podcast, wink smiley.

Sebastian: Yes, no, so I think it's simply a matter of the money I have. And the long-term nature of the collaboration. If I'm only looking for someone in the short term, then I can also look for a pro, who may cost more money, but who does the job firmly. If I just say, hey I want to build something and I also want to make people, attention buzz word, employer branding. Then it is clear, it should be in any case accordingly a long-term story. So a trainee if you have a trainer certificate, of course, is also a cool thing, there you can get out I think a lot and the people then also really think long term and are very satisfied with the cooperation, then there are also people Bock on it and also like to work for you, so. Unless they are like us, then it will be difficult.

Niels: Yes the abreiten then also gladly, but one has so a tendency to make itself, difficult. That's also a topic that we will probably get in the future, this retaining, how you keep your people in the company. But that's still future music in any case, I don't think we need to focus on it so much yet. But it's interesting, too, and maybe we can address it.

Sebastian: With a great company car, that's the most important thing. In any case.

Niels: Porsche Carrera S, come the in WhatsApp group. Telegram.

Sebastian: Telegram, that's right Telegram is now. Yes, nice, that's the topic. It's actually a very quick and dirty podcast, but I think maybe it's quite helpful at the beginning, when you also start, how do I want to get started now. Because of course when I start in a team, then I always have other people who could spit in my soup, so .and that's good, and that's bad.

Niels: Let's both sum up again, so what now when you look at the path that you've taken so far in the case so. Working independently in your subject versus team slash agency, what is your conclusion so now after the months, the year, the little longer than a year, I don't know.

Sebastian: So now from the perspective that you can talk to people and exchange ideas, it's definitely a great story to have a team. Simply because we have now also ... #00:21:43# had, is just fun with the people also so not only business, but simply also to have a connection, because you get along well with them. I personally find cool and is also important to me to some extent. Now, of course, it is so that I also work alone as far as possible, we have no office together, accordingly, it is still so thought, I'm still alone, but by working together I find, you learn simply once again much more, simply about the business. You have experiences once again that you wouldn't otherwise gain. You're exposed to situations that you wouldn't have otherwise. That always take a lot of your energy and cost a lot of your last nerves. But it's just, it's just the question of where do you want to go. If you say you just want to scale a little bit and try a little bit more and gain a little bit more experience, I think that's a sensible move.

If you say you want to be the overboss in your area properly, so only in one topic and do nothing else, offer nothing else and become really known for it, then, probably better if you do it as a one man show. At least strategically, but I think to also learn more, just about yourself, about how you just like to do business, I think it's good to try it out. Like I said.

Niels: Yes, okay. I can agree to that extent. I have to say that I have really, really found that it can also be great fun to build up a team, to manage a team a bit and also to hand over tasks. Because I've always thought of myself as someone who definitely works alone in his field. Doing all the things on my own, so that it meets my own standards. But I have now made the experience, as you have just described, that I simply test how it works. And it has really brought many advantages with itself simply times this small egoistic shell to put down. To give it a chance and above all, you also spend money. You spend money, you actually learn to invest. You invest in people and then you realize okay, it can give me a great return, either monetarily or I say now in the form of relief, fun, or less stress. If I also take money in my hand for something. And I think that would also be a really important point for many people, to get this entrepreneurial thinking and acting and the topic of scaling on the radar and clear recommendation also from me, sometimes hand over tasks, sometimes work together with other people.

Sebastian: Yes, and if it doesn't work out, then you've gained experience, then you just have to see how you go on. That's just the way it is.

Niels: Yes of course not, if you take in 3,000 there now book for 6,000 freelancers, everything must already happen in a meaningful framework, but because that is teaching money. And you pay so much apprenticeship money in your business, everyone, everyone pays a lot of apprenticeship money and that's just part of it.

Sebastian: Word, word, word Niels, thanks. Thanks for tuning into this podcast. And yes then we'll hear you in the next one. (Music.)