SEBASTIAN: You're also fed up with scammy online marketing gurus who promise you superficial hype strategies as a way to success? #00:00:07#
NIELS: As independent online marketers who consider the daily grind their absolute comfort zone, we've made it our mission to expose the online marketing bullshit. With us, you get the unfiltered truth about the current state of the online marketing world and which strategies really work. #00:00:24#
SEBASTIAN: Your hosts Niels Stuck and Sebastian Vogg present new online marketing topics in each episode, such as SEO, Facebook Ads, Content, and much more, to take your online marketing success to the next level. #00:00:39# (8 sec.) (Music)
(end intro)
SEBASTIAN: ... and welcome to the No Bullshit Online Marketing Podcast with Niels. #00:00:53#
NIELS: Welcome. #00:00:55#
SEBASTIAN: And with Caro. #00:00:56#
CAROLINE PREUSS: Hello. #00:00:59#
SEBASTIAN: Moin, Caro. CAROLINE PREUSS: is our guest in the interview today. And yes, Caro, we also work together with Caro in online marketing. Accordingly, this is a very cool topic, especially because Caro was now recently also at EPX. Was that event called or-? #00:01:13#
CAROLINE PREUSS: Right. EPX 19. #00:01:15#
SEBASTIAN: Exactly. Since you also got the Newcomer Award and are just in the field of sales, online courses so the star in the online marketing sky. Can you do that so-, (CAROLINE PREUSS: Thanks.) at least in the whole insider topics. Because, many still don't know your name, which is a shame. That's why we're here. And Niels, just get started so with the first questions we prepared for Caro. #00:01:40#
NIELS: Exactly. So of course, we wanted to, to introduce you to people who don't know you yet, we'd like to start with the-, a little recap, like that: Who is CAROLINE PREUSS: ? What does she do? And how did she get on our podcast today? #00:01:57#
CAROLINE PREUSS: Exactly. I'll just start and tell you a little bit about how I actually got started. So actually, I used to have so-, this is actually the most original story, I had a student job, nine euros an hour I sorted clothes. And then at some point I thought to myself, "No, that can't have been it somehow." I was still studying business and then, because I just saw that it was somehow-, for me it doesn't make sense and that doesn't fulfill me, I started to found a blog, at that time still a fashion blog, so it was really totally cliché "Influencer", that was 2014, 2015. Then I started to make it a DIY blog, because I just realized: "Okay, I have to rebrand myself. I really want to make money with this."
That is, I looked for a niche where the competition was low. Of course, I also thought about how I could monetize the whole thing. And that was rather-, well, I had such goals at that time that I would like to be on television one day. And I wanted to, so totally blatant, I wanted to earn more than 400 euros per month. That was my goal, because I had earned that with my student job. Yes, and then I started making these do-it-yourself tutorials. I branded them very colorfully, very much in unicorn style. So that was for a very young teen target group, really young. Then I made youtube videos. And then the key to my success was that I had a viral pin on Pinterest. At that time, Pinterest wasn't even known in Germany. I was the first one to use Pinterest. And then I thought, "Hey, that's really cool. I'll turn it into an online course." And then when I had the first 10000 euros in my account with the first launch, I thought to myself so-. I was still super young at the time, I still had this student job and I thought to myself, "Wow. I have to expand that somehow." Then I went on two tracks for a long time. We'll get to that later. How I also changed my branding. So it's become much more professional now. Then I also had Instagram viral videos. Some of them had a reach of over a million views, which, you know, organic views, that's just totally rad. And I then marketed that in an Instagram online course. And now success course, there I have worked together with you two in the area of "Facebook advertising", yes, that is now my current product. And I have with knapp-, so with all installments I have achieved a turnover of around 400000 euros with it. So one product and one week one launch. It's just totally crazy, exactly. That's my story. Let's see how it continues. #00:04:29#
SEBASTIAN: Yes, that's really crass. So just the recap, because you're also our age now, that you come up with such numbers, that's really intense. And in any case not normal. But being normal is not so cool anyway. #00:04:49#
CAROLINE PREUSS: Exactly. #00:04:49#
SEBASTIAN: Yes, exactly. That is, how did that come about? Well, if I now-, we're just talking about it now, yes, you did a do-it-yourself-, that is, this course or-. The question is: How did this change come about in the first place? Because, the do-it-yourself theme you probably already did, I guess, because you enjoyed it, I guess. And how did it come about that you then just switched to this other, to the more serious field, if you can call it that. #00:05:18#
CAROLINE PREUSS: So I'll put it this way, I have the do-it-yourself blog, which was fun. But of course, as everyone who has ever thought about it knows, you always trade your time for money. And what I then just at some point-, what I became aware of, I just worked super much, so I had to prepare all the do-it-yourself's, shoot. Then we had customers who sometimes didn't take the photos. And then once, although, and this has now really been a great learning of mine, although you think you have your own business, you are still in the hamster wheel. And then at some point I realized: "Oh, that doesn't make sense somehow. And I also have to admit, which was also a great learning experience for me, that I'm not an ego person. So there are a lot of people, that was also the case yesterday at EPX in Berlin, who think it's cool when they have a lot of followers, when they get a huge show. I go on stage, speak and I'm done. And I just want to speak my stuff. But I don't really care about the applause and the fans. And then I just also thought about the do-it-yourself blog: "Okay, I have now-, on Youtube I had somehow, I don't know, 70000 subscriptions, has grown super, on Instagram just under 100000 followers." And then at some point I was like, "Gross, man. If I get even bigger now, I'll just be recognized everywhere all the time." So it was already the case that I was recognized in Berlin. And then I thought to myself: "No, I don't want that at all. I'm not the type for that." I don't think it's cool to be recognized either. And also another learning: followers don't fill your bank account. And that's also, so-. #00:06:49#
SEBASTIAN: Ach wirklich?#00:06:51#
CAROLINE PREUSS: Yes, but, yes. But a lot of people are just so ego-driven. And then they are happy about products. Yes, you actually have to pay tax on products. So you have to be an influencer. You have to be an actor a bit. It just wasn't my thing. And then I said, "Okay. Then I'll just do something new." And then I dared to do it. When I changed, when I changed my branding, I also got a little bit of a shitstorm. People who called me a money-grubber. And also a lot of people who were angry, because you've built up a community. But at the end of the day, this is my platform, this is my life. And I make the decisions about it. #00:07:29#
NIELS: Very good.#00:07:31#
SEBASTIAN: Okay. And what I also find very interesting in that context. Talking to you or hearing what you're saying now-. But you are already very business-focused. And the online marketing topic is already quite a special topic. And right from the start you talked about niches and little competition. How did you actually teach yourself about online marketing? Do you have any tips or recommendations for people who want to get smart into the topic? #00:08:03#
CAROLINE PREUSS: So what I always recommend, I have now also-, I also really saw it at EPX yesterday. Partly people were still running after me outside and wanted to have tips from me and wanted-. That was really crass yesterday. And wanted me to somehow evaluate the business idea and give my opinion. And what I just always do-, really, I don't have a coach where I pay 50000 euros or something, I taught myself everything, I haven't done another online course in my life. And what I-. So sure, online courses get you to your goal faster. I just didn't have the money in the beginning. And what I recommend is to trust your intuition. I trust my own intuition a lot. I just also think about the topic of "funnel building", we're also doing it now, we're both going live together with new Facebook ads for my Instagram course. I just thought about what makes sense. And now we just test different things and then we look at "What works and what doesn't work." And we do more or less of that. And many people think that there is a recipe somehow. It's important to read a lot, to talk to a lot of people. That's what I did, I did a lot of networking and then I always thought about it. Just switch on your brain. I also see this with my own customers, who no longer think for themselves. They think they have outsourced their brain to me when they buy an online course from me. And a little bit of transfer is also important. You hear something somewhere, I see another Facebook ad or I've watched a lot of other webinars. I look at ten webinars, see what's the same in all of them. My cell phone rings. Wait, sorry, my cell phone just rang. Sorry. #00:09:50#
SEBASTIAN: All good. #00:09:50#
CAROLINE PREUSS: Exactly. In any case, I look at what's going on with others, what others are doing. And then I implement that for myself. And I simply test. And yes, and just read a lot, watch other webinars, consume as much as possible. But I wouldn't let myself be coached for 100,000 euros. Sorry. #00:10:09#
NIELS: So that's just experience, very good. #00:10:12#
SEBASTIAN: But what it would still interest me more. So the first educational point with online marketing, because, somehow you already have so-. So of course, you studied business administration. Was it then the study or was it then rather an app, where you saw once, where you this concept of online courses, there you have to come somehow on it. So ... #00:10:29#.
CAROLINE PREUSS: So I found this concept cool. So what I always find cool, I've also observed it a lot in the U.S., I do it in general, tip for everyone: Look, what's going on in the U.S.? And what can you bring to Germany? Where are the gaps in the market? And what fascinated me was that, at the beginning, I couldn't imagine that you could really earn so much money with online courses. And that actually makes, if you extrapolate it. I always have an example like this: You have an e-mail list with 1000 people, a conversion rate of five percent. Fifty course sales of 400 euros each, 20000 euros turnover. That's a lot of money and makes perfect sense. The thing about online courses is that many people can't even imagine it. And in the beginning I couldn't imagine it either. I thought, that can't be. And that's what was so appealing to me. Also, you build a funnel, you think about it. It's as strategic as a chess game. And then the funnel just works. And I think that's totally cool. And in my studies, great, you learn business administration at the Humboldt in Berlin, they don't even know what online marketing is, so it feels like. #00:11:33#
NIELS: With me it was also BWL, I can empathize. #00:11:35#
CAROLINE PREUSS: Yes. #00:11:36#
SEBASTIAN: Okay. Then we have personal branding. That is ... #00:11:44# somehow, you have built up your personal brand, so it is yes, without you, the store usually does not run. But of course, through these online courses, you've largely managed to make it work without you. But of course you are the person who markets it in the end. What are your top tips for marketing yourself as a person? #00:12:04#
CAROLINE PREUSS: The top tips, I also noticed that again at EPX actually, I always get when I appear in public, because, I always have so for everyone who doesn't know me now- or take a look at my Instagram profile, there I am-, so I often wear yellow. I also like to have yellow shoes, yellow blazer, I actually always wear a yellow or pink blazer and yellow shoes. These are always-, I have very few clothes and I just always wear them. So I have branded myself very strongly through colors, my website is yellow and a little bit pink. And that's very popular with people. And really, what I've also seen now in the-, I've also seen that because, that's so blatant with me, I'm so young and I've overtaken all the competitors of mine in the niche, all of them. And why? Or what makes me special? I just stand out from the crowd. And while many don't speak their mind, always want to be nice, that's also something typical that many women do, they all want to be nice, just fit into society, I just said: "Okay. I'll just do something completely different." And of course you get a bit of hate for it at the beginning. I was often ridiculed for it. But I always knew that it made sense in the long run. And when I now appear somewhere like this, all people recognize me everywhere. So I've built up such a brand, if you see an ad of mine and you don't even see my face, you know exactly who that is, so-. And yeah, what I would do, I would focus on colors. So I always say that to all my mentoring participants, too: "Look for colors. It doesn't have to be pink and yellow. Find something that makes you stand out from the crowd. Because, quite honestly, nobody cares. So if you are not somehow special, you have great content, you look somehow special through colors, you have some message to announce, most do not even have a message, then the market is simply not interested in you. You're really out of luck." And I think many people don't understand that. Full plain text. #00:13:58#
NIELS: But I'm ... I'm still....I'm special. That's the classic ... #00:14:06#.
CAROLINE PREUSS: Yes, God. #00:14:09#
SEBASTIAN: Okay, very straight. Fits the name of the podcast. We'll thank you there in advance. #00:14:16#
CAROLINE PREUSS: Gladly. #00:14:18#
SEBASTIAN: I would still be interested: How do you go about building a community in these times when people have a seven-second attention span? What would be your recommendations? #00:14:32#
CAROLINE PREUSS: So what I actually do so-. First of all, I do a lot intuitively, so when you make videos like that, you have to make stories. You have to be able to speak well and you have to show yourself. And that's where a lot of people fail, they're kind of afraid. I always say, and I also said this yesterday at EPX to many of my customers: "What can happen to you? Nobody is going to kill you. And just go out in the world and just show yourself to the world." That's kind of the first thing, a lot of people don't do that. And yeah, what I would do, or what I actually always do, I always try to get things to the point. A lot of people don't manage to do that either. I don't know, I know many, I always look at Instragram TV videos or Instagram ... #00:15:14#. And then first of all they say, "Good morning, my dears. I made myself a coffee first thing today." and "Oh, look, the sun is shining." and "Ah, I just heard a bird chirping." and "Look, I clicked away." So I think ... #00:15:27#.
SEBASTIAN: Goes down like oil. #00:15:27#
CAROLINE PREUSS: So I think you know what I mean. You just have to catch the person. And what I do, I always often bring controversial statements. So I do that I say, for example, "If you don't have a-. You're a service provider and you don't have an online course now. Then your business won't exist in five years." Or so times completely-. Is just an example of such a statement. Or such controversial statements a bit, where you think about it, something that catcht. We also do that in the-, Sebastian knows that, in advertisements we also do that, that we cut something in at the beginning-, that's what we always do, in the first three seconds we cut something in, what catcht, what is somehow funny, what-. Then there's also a lot of-, you know Facebook ads, where someone burns money and then they're like, "Hey, stop. Stop burning your money." Okay, maybe not like that. Or someone throws money out of their window or something. But something that just catches your eye. In the first three seconds, you have to captivate the person. #00:16:27#
SEBASTIAN: Okay, very good. #00:16:28#
CAROLINE PREUSS: And have a good statement. And get to the heart of things. Many people can't do that either. Many don't have a common thread. What I always like to do is to take three steps. I also did that at EPX in my presentation, and a lot of people said: "That was so cool, that was the coolest presentation. Because the others babble. And I bring three steps that are a bit-. Of course, there are not only three steps, but they suggest that it's easy. That you only need three steps. Yes, exactly. #00:16:54#
SEBASTIAN: Yes, and with community building, that is, with your people, so when it comes to Instagram, for example, you're not actively building up followers now? You have now also-, so you are now not-. Your goal, as we said earlier, is not 100,000 followers. There are yes-, so clearly, the 100000 followers people who are in the fitness area, they have then somehow such a code. And from them then just a few percent per order. But you can see that followers do not equal sales, not at all. #00:17:27#
CAROLINE PREUSS: Exactly. I would tell myself halt. So what I also always say, also in my Instagram online course. There are always, so very many entrepreneurs come to me, for example, here, I'll give the example of "café owner in Berlin." He then comes and says, "I want to gain so many new followers." And then I say, "What good are followers from Hamburg or Bremen? Maybe place ads within a two-kilometer radius of your café and look for people in Berlin. But don't always think in terms of follower numbers." I do exactly the same thing with CAROLINE PREUSS: also, with my Instagram account, that I know that first of all my target group is smaller and that's why it's also impossible to build up so many followers. And instead, I have a different goal: community building, credibility, authenticity. Because I know that the followers themselves-. I'm not an influencer who works with advertising partners and markets reach. If I were an influencer, of course the followers would perhaps be a bit more important to me, because the brands pay attention above all to the reach. But in itself, always and-. That's what I mean by "switching on the brain" in online marketing, always thinking: "What is my goal?" And that's just what a lot of people don't do. I don't know why either. And then they come to me and say, "Your Instagram course sucks because, you're saying I shouldn't build any followers." Then I always say, "Yeah, but you just have to think about it: What do you want to achieve on Instagram?" And that goes for any other platform. #00:18:54#
SEBASTIAN: ... Okay. And if you now look back over the last few months? Do you have any tips regarding scaling? How did you handle that with you? Because it went pretty much through the roof. And you first have to get a grip on that somehow or deal with it. What lessons did you perhaps learn from that phase? #00:19:20#
CAROLINE PREUSS: So actually the topic "scaling" I am not yet at the end. I also have to deal with all the sums first. I can do that, I always say quite honestly. What we're doing together with Sebastian now, we're scaling up the Facebook ads again, and we're also automating all my online products. What I just thought on the subject of "scaling" with such an Instagram online course or with such a-. I'll say, it costs 400 euros, around 400 euros. It's "nice to have", but in order to really scale sales upwards, you have to work with product managers. So on the subject of "online courses". And you definitely have to work with more expensive products. And that's why I launched the current online course, the success course for around 2000 euros. I was really afraid that it would be something new for me, because there are few products in Germany, i.e. online courses, that are so expensive that no one would buy them. But the product actually worked. And I'm going to build on that now. So always in, I say, track the customer journey. That's what helped me with the scaling issue. People start with the Instagram course, then they evolve with me, then do the 2,000-euro product. And who knows, afterwards there's group coaching for 10000 euros, for example. And so you can build it up like a pyramid. And then think about new products. Of course, I can't scale up an Instagram course to a seven-figure turnover. But (?a) successful course, yes. #00:20:54#
SEBASTIAN: ... #00:20:56# Pyramid system, what everyone is always talking about. ... #00:20:59# No. But of course, the topic of "lifetime value", i.e. keeping this (?value) of the customer higher. So ... #00:21:09# it can sometimes be more expensive. But if the customer gets to know the brand and then buys the next course, then it pays for itself and is worth it very quickly ... #00:21:19#. Accordingly, yes something like this is exactly the procedure. So especially in the time where ... #00:21:23# become more and more expensive at Facebook-. So, clearly, with you, you have the advantage, you have a high shopping cart value. So with you, you don't pay 20 euros for anything, you just have a higher price right away. But of course, this thought: "Okay, I'm not just focused on purchasing, but I would like ... #00:21:39# to qualify upwards, so to speak, and then leave a higher shopping cart there. That is of course mega smart. #00:21:49#
CAROLINE PREUSS: I can also say something interesting about that, which was also one of my most important learnings for me, which I also do differently than my competitors. I'm currently trying, and this-. I also saw it at EPX, there are so many people selling online courses. And they just have great marketing. And the courses behind them are just shit. Really, I have to say. So many, they have a low video runtime, they don't care about the customer. What I realized, but at that time I was still alone in my business, I had far too few employees, I said, "So. I'm now hiring employees who only care about the customers." And of course, for now it's so-. Okay, the profit margin is still high, but first, "Okay, hmm, now you have to hire employees there and everything, they're expensive." But actually, that was also what was really worth it, hiring people to support the customer. We have such good customer support, really. We have really awesome customer support. And we also have live chat for the customers. And all of that, of course, leads me to say, "The customer will probably buy again if they're happy." And always just this-. Which is what a lot of people do, they funnel customers through like that. Then he buys once and look: Zack, gone. I have his money and that's it. And I try to really build something sustainable with it. That is very important. And many people forget that. There was an interesting podcast episode in the U.S. called "Forgotten Funnel," which many people forget. The fact that sales also lie in the company's own customers. I would also think about that when I sell online courses. Yes. #00:23:24#
SEBASTIAN: Yeah, it's just the backend, so I mean, for example, what you completely forget in e-commerce, as an example, bought this funnel, you can kind of all the buyers get an ad: "Thank you for your purchase." You wouldn't believe how blatant the return is on something like that. People actually buy again, just because of such an ad. So alone the "forgotten funnel". Of course, after that, after the first sale, that's why marketing automation is so important. I mean, you don't have to tell Caro about email marketing. But that's one component that many people don't use yet. At the end of the day, it's all about building relationships with customers. I mean, in our model here it's also the case that the better the relationship is with our customers and the better we understand each other, the better ideas we have and the better it works in the end. So it's not automatic, but it's definitely an important component. #00:24:23#
NIELS: Yes. In the context-. #00:24:25#
CAROLINE PREUSS: And I try to stop. Yes, say. No, what I also wanted to say is that I always try to overdeliver. That's very important. The customer is king. And many people forget that. If my employees talk badly about customers because they're annoyed, they really get in trouble from me. The customer is the most important person in our business. Niels, what did you want to say? #00:24:47#
NIELS: I still wanted to go into it. Because, many now, so those who have not yet started or do not yet work with it, also can not really imagine that email marketing is still a thing. #00:24:59#
CAROLINE PREUSS: Yeah, really? Rad. #00:25:01#
NIELS: ... #00:25:00# the channel-. Yes, well, of course, is already dead since 2016. But do you plan to serve other similar channels? What's popular now? Broadcasts or-. #00:25:15#
SEBASTIAN: Messenger for example. #00:25:15#
NIELS: Or Messenger Broadcasts et cetera. #00:25:17#
CAROLINE PREUSS: Messenger we are considering. But that's halt-. So okay. I always say, before I open a new barrel, I'll just continue with what works. And with email marketing, I know first of all that it works. And that's also always what I do, I focus on very few things. And the things that I do, I do really well. And many of them are like startled chickens, they run around wild, really. Many of my customers also run around. And what I actually do, I'm like, "Piano, guys. One funnel, one thing and one product." And I always have to stop myself because I always want to do so many things and learn so many new things. But first do one thing well. And then do the next thing. That's why I definitely want to test messenger marketing. But for now, email marketing still works. Facebook ads still work for me, my webinar works great. Why should I change anything at the moment? But of course, it's important to stay on the ball, to try out new things. #00:26:20#
SEBASTIAN: That's why this Shiny Object Syndrome, so to speak, is to say: So it doesn't matter whether it's in entrepreneurial or online marketing, but: "There's something new that we're about to do." So sure, I'm also a fan of, when a new feature of Facebook comes out, then I'm also excited like such a nerd. It's cool, too. But at the end of the day, it's the basics that work. It's not about what you use or what you do now. But the interaction, the composition of everything just to make basics just on everything. #00:26:47#
CAROLINE PREUSS: Yes, many of my customers don't want to hear that either. Because then I always-. I always say to people-, I also said yesterday during my presentation: "Before you build up some blatant funnel, think about it: Who is the target group? How are you branded? What is your USP? And how good is the product actually?" So the product, Sebastian, we've talked about it a lot when we first started working together, I remember you were maybe a bit skeptical, I told you about my Instagram course. And then when we had the first apps live, you were like, "That's amazing how well that works." And I told you, "Eh, my product is just awesome." It's an awesome product. And if you have a bad product, the best Messenger boards and Facebook apps won't help you: no one will buy your product. And a lot of people are like that, they're rushing through it and they just think that there's some Facebook strategy. But actually, the basics are important. And that sounds kind of hard. That's just totally unsexy actually. #00:27:41#
SEBASTIAN: That is, they don't exist. Shit. #00:27:45#
CAROLINE PREUSS: Nope, sorry. #00:27:46#
SEBASTIAN: I waited extra for it, no one told me. #00:27:49#
CAROLINE PREUSS: No. You have to put 100,000 euros in your hand. And then I'll coach you on it and tell you my secret. #00:27:55#
SEBASTIAN: Okay. ...Very good, so I'll go to the bank tomorrow and take out a loan. #00:28:01#
CAROLINE PREUSS: Exactly. I recommend the credit to you. #00:28:04#
NIELS: But I think that's a very good finishing statement: do one thing well before you start the next. #00:28:12#
CAROLINE PREUSS: Exactly. #00:28:13#
SEBASTIAN: Then Caro, thank you so much for your valuable time on the podcast. And we'll hear you again next time. #00:28:22#
CAROLINE PREUSS: Yes, thank you for having me. See you soon. #00:28:25#
SEBASTIAN: Gladly. #00:28:25#
NIELS: See you soon #00:28:26#
By 
German 
English 