Sebastian: You're also fed up with scammy online marketing gurus who promise superficial half-strategies as the way to success?
NielsAs self-employed online marketers who consider the daily grind their absolute comfort zone, we've made it our mission to expose the online marketing bullshit. With us, you get the unfiltered truth about the current state of the online marketing world and which strategies really work.
SebastianIn each episode, your hosts Niels Stuck and Sebastian Vogg present new online marketing topics, such as SEO, Facebook Ads, content and much more, to take your online marketing success to the next level. (10 sec.)
Sebastian: Morning and welcome to the No Bullshit Online Marketing Podcast with Niels Stuck as always.
NielsWelcome, welcome.
Sebastian: And with our guest of honor Matthias Vogg.
Matthias Vogg: Uh yeah.
Sebastian: This is your second podcast already, that's an honor.
Matthias Vog: Slowly I become the guarantor.
SebastianNice, nice. Yes, what do we have with us today? Matthias is in our team, we have already mentioned in the first podcast, but perhaps today again for those who have not yet heard the first, in our team responsible for content. And content in written form, no, so everything that is textual content, not necessarily video content. Yes, and today we wanted to take a look at Matthias' brain, how the mastermind makes our texts, because as already mentioned at the beginning, it's always quite funny how Matthias turns some, in quotation marks, boring topics from some medium-sized companies or what are so classic texts that you just read, where you actually start to vomit. How Matthias manages to praise them anyway and make them horny. Yes and therefore today simply times to it a small Podcastfolge. But first of all, Matthias, because I don't think you've mentioned this yet, how did you come up with the topic of content?
Matthias VoggYes, so we start now I more with Adam and Eve and, but there is the short version. I have through a long existing love of books, already read books, literature also simply. Now not upscale literature but reading itself simply. German and English, has always been such a soft spot for me. Then thought to myself, yes, let's study. Würzburg, that was 2012, I studied teaching German and English. It was definitely a bit of a mistake, because I dropped out again, but it was still fun. Just to go into the language always and this really cool writing, or really good English can, really good, beautiful English writing and also German just know what's what. Putting commas correctly and stuff like that has always been fun for me.
And also had a really good Abi, but my God, then no rooster crows then more after it. And in any case, I then so, after just Sebastian then came into the whole online topics, and I thought so, oh there you can also use texts, or online content does quite well, because I mean with something you have to fill the WWW and so I thought to myself, hm let's test it out. I mean, in the beginning, I was much too lyrically inclined and almost too artistic, because I mean, in the end, of course, the performance counts online. But we'll get into that later, how much performance is really good. And when the content becomes brainless. But that's Baseline, my story compressed.
SebastianAlright. And then it just went, so the topic of online marketing, no, then we just started with SEO texts.
Matthias VoggYes, I have, exactly I have started my own business. And before that I started with SEO texts, I also worked for Ellet Hals for example, for Elliott Hulse for JP Sears, so already bigger names and also learned from Elliott. And in this area he also has a lot on it, or had a lot on it and he taught me a lot, so how to write these typical American sales texts. I just got into it a little bit and that made me happy, especially when it's about topics that concern me, where I have a feeling for it, because you can also train yourself, yes, or just to put yourself into it, to get out of a topic what simply appeals to someone, yes, that you can somehow shape even the most boring topic so that someone reads it and thinks, ah cool okay, sounds good.
SebastianOkay. If we take to it times, the keyword these typical American sales texts. Because if I now read through content, in my case for example SEO, there is still a lot, in any case influenced by the American area. And I have now also in the collaboration with you and the texts that we have developed together with search engines. Optimization and good texts always go hand in hand, noticed that you can really make a text out of almost any topic that reads well. Whether it's something medical, something totally technical or of course the lifestyle topics where it lends itself, it doesn't matter, in the end a very round text comes out of it. And what is your, first of all secret source, so personal, that you use in texts so? And the theme, this American style, which reads for my sensation, for example, completely different than most German texts, where are the differences for you?
Matthias VoggSo with American, it definitely works in Europe and especially in Germany only very, very conditionally. So this flashy make it big, bam bam bam. I think the Germans are very allergic to it, so that's definitely something country-specific, something culture-specific. The biggest differences are simply, I think the Germans are just very, very cerebral, very information-oriented, rational and they don't really want, they want to be subtly sold, yes. They don't want this superficial, yes here's the features of benefits and here and so on, now here time is running out, going out of stock and so on. The German doesn't want that, but with more subtle techniques you can get there much better. If the German thinks he's in control, so to speak, he would make an intellectual decision, but he doesn't, he never does. And there are just these serious differences and I mean, to take something from both worlds to make something cool out of it, that has always been the attraction, the challenge for me. And I mean, that's the classic problem of the Germans, because the Americans, they somehow always manage, generally speaking, to convey such an attitude towards life. Even if it's just this stupid, ouch we're American attitude to life oh geil make. No matter for what, whether it's for plumber or roofer or whatever, yeah, they have that mindset. Yeah, with the Germans it's not, the Germans it's, it's kind of weirder, and there everything has to be kind of sterile, accurate, informational and then some history, in 1900 blah blah blah, we founded this and that and did this and that. All full texts. Which of course the Americans also do, but now generally speaking. And that's why we have to look at how I can bring a feeling of life into a text. I mean, that's the only thing, like, what do I want to trigger in the person who reads the text. It's so banal.
NielsWhat then tastes good to the emotionally cold German, in a text?
Matthias Vogg: That's a good question. It depends. I think so, an intellectual humor, there you have to be careful of course, that does not work in all contexts, but so the intellectual humor so bring in, sprinkle a little bit, that gives the text so the certain sharpness, a certain spice, where you think, okay tastes. Yes, so that's something special (Sebastian: Tastes.) It's something-. It's something that's not just the typical bullshit halt, of some theoretical drivel. Yes, and in itself, if-, just to put yourself in, that is, that does not have to be emotionally touching, that does not have to be, oh my son just died the other day and what do I know, not something like that. Not so touching, but I look at the text from a completely different perspective. That means I don't look at it, I'm the content creator, I want to convey this text. But I put myself in it, I have perhaps been in this situation myself, and then I look in, what, what perspective from this emotionally felt embodied problem, I can now take that the person feels addressed, and says, yes okay, I dedicate my life time to read that.
SebastianYes, so the question is, you just have to look again at which companies are successful in social media advertising right now, for example, or which ones manage to tell a good story, and I mean, now let's take the classic example, but look at True Fruits. It's old, just not classic copy, what they do. They have their bottle lyrics, that's just written word too, but that's just fucking awesome. It's just exactly the nerve of the target audience that is hit. It is, meets just as much hate as well as positive feedback, but it's just actually the best example of what you can create just with content text. That in principle, of course, but of course not everyone has to do it that way. There are just so all these brands, stores or so, discounters, which now just try to copy what True Fruits does, but it is then just no longer the source what quasi (Matthias Vogg: It does not taste.) belongs to it.
Niels: Alright.
Matthias VoggYes, it tastes bland, it actually tastes bland, yes. Yes but, again, I think the thing is simple, do I want to write a text and am I really into it. Then you can write what you want, then you don't need to make it humorous or anything else, but if you really have someone who is up for writing a text and says okay, now let's make this thing as cool as possible. Just to set this goal. Because I mean, what do most companies do? They just have an objective or an order from the superior, yes, write a text about this and that. Or that, like in school, da da da da da, blablablablabla, yes. So, it's just, it's a monotonous complexion executed according to obligations, it lacks enthusiasm it lacks passion (Niels: The main thing is that it is approved.) Yes, good enough, ne.
SebastianSo how would you say, when you write a text like this, what is your creative process? So what stages do you go through when you write a text? Research, if it's now about-, let's just say a text okay, that should be both sense optimized and sound good.
Matthias VoggYes, then basic is definitely the keyword analysis, which I usually get from a good Niels. So it's just important, because online we don't write the text so that everyone sings Kumbaya my lord, but it should of course drive traffic, it should definitely come out with a measurable end result or at least a good, a measurable result in euros, sometime. And then I just look at how I can incorporate that. If I have existing texts, that's great, of course, because then I can at least understand, okay, what's important to the person or the company, what do they want to communicate. And then I just try to muddle the whole thing into content, into a complex process of lyrical alchemy. It's just that, it's really, it's a hard process, it's not made easy. There's also not really anything now where you can say, okay I'm learning that now in training. There are also about principles, it doesn't hurt for example to have a good ?graph of spelling and grammar because it's just a pain in the ass if you can't do that. Yeah and if you just, if you read stuff like that, you know even from big companies where you think why was this person hired to write this. If it's just basic, you know make such complicated sentence nesting to sound as smart as possible, oh god stop me so really. Therefore, we want clarity and we want above all someone, we want to have inwardly the intension, I want to offer the one who reads this I want to offer a service, I don't want to profile myself and I don't want to work my text, or so the ego in there, so that someone says, oh that's but cool written. That's nice if it's good, of course, but it's mainly about fulfilling the purpose, yes. The purpose and, the purpose also, whose that the person who reads this has joy in it or it at least gladly reads somehow.
Niels: So would you recommend, if it's not super complicated, keep it as simple as possible, or if it's complicated, simplify it as much as possible for the reader.
Matthias VoggSo absolutely. Nobody wants to read anything complicated. I don't think in the internet anyway, where you have the possibility to entertain yourself all the time, so it has to be understandable somehow, as soon as the brain switches off, it's easy, the person is no longer guided and is no longer taken along by the text, and then you've already lost. And then, of course, you try to make this text as meaningful as possible, of course with nice headings, get the keywords in the headings, then set them off by the keyword density. Then we want to have a nice sentence beginning, it should also not be too long and too short. We want to have variety in it, but we don't want it to sound too fancy. So it's a very, very difficult balance to maintain.
SebastianOkay, I can see that there are a lot of individual points. But if you would now say for yourself from the gut, what are the three components that you consider most important. So if you could only adhere to three things in a text, because that is too overwhelming for you at first, because you are perhaps new to the content topic. Which three rules would you give to a copywriter you are training?
Matthias VoggNumber one, before you write, put yourself in the shoes of the person who will eventually read it. That's the most important thing, because many write too much from their own perspective, as a content creator or as a company. Yes and then think it's good themselves, but the customer can't relate to it because there's no context. Number two, if it's fun to write, it's fun to read. That's what I would say. So that's been my experience. Of course, if it's in mind with the previous point, that I'm not just writing out something that makes me feel good now, but when I'm really in the flow and really realize, ah hey this is now, this is balling now, then in the end something good comes out of it. Usually, yes. And also a good feedback at least so far always. And number three, difficult there are so many things, but I need a text, a guidance and a red thread. So reading over it several times and then looking is this piece of writing self-contained that I can say I'm going to take the reader by the hand and lead that one through there. And these are actually all mental preparation things and these are also things that are based on experience and that are also based a bit on one's own will and one's own urge to create a great text. And then of course all the knowledge and the theoretical stuff, that's not done with knowing how SEO works, that you know that you put a paragraph every five lines or six lines and stuff like that.
SebastianBut now independently of SEO, so I've also seen texts, even from people who have simply written about a cool topic, which they enjoy and which also has search volume and then such a text also ranks. I think the requirements that you say are again much more important than, clearly, optimized text in any case also a one plus page, ne quite clear. That should actually be a prerequisite for content on the Internet. (Matthias: Please no more than an A.) Should actually everyone who, at some point makes html on the Internet and just writes content in any way know that it is just so from the hierarchy. But regardless of that, I think that it is what you just says so, a start, which should actually make everyone. And regardless of text or not. If I just upload a fucking picture of my print catalog and then put an ad on it, you can just throw it in the garbage can. So this reinsertion into the customer is the very, very most important thing.
It's the same with the website theme, ne. People have an idea of how it should look, but they don't know how the customer would like it or what is important to the customer when he comes to such a website. Most of the time it's not what's important to you. That is the thing. That's why I'm right there with you. What would you see now so to you current content development, because many sites take yes the text down from the page and make only large images with video, which is cool in itself, because now not so much text is on it, but what would you call good, what would you call bad?
Matthias VoggSo to do little text is definitely despicable, at least from my perspective. (Sebastian: Different, despicable.) Ne, but so, ne you always have to think about what suits you, yes. Text is sometimes good, text is sometimes not good. I don't think you can say general things. But what in any case, a content, landing page content, SEO texts, whatever also social media content yes of posts and ads, is the problem I think, the biggest, that you want to fall out yourself simply what and think too little about it, how does that arrive at the customer. Because if you already do this process and how does that fit into my-, into what I, into my digital assets, as Karl Katz would say, for example, yes, the assets that you have. How does that fit in there and how does that embody, what it's really about.
And that's why it's also with the content just like that, if it's just uploaded like that and I'm just thinking about, oh these are the features and benefits, oh this is my product, that might work if you want to really trash or just something really so style, so American homeshopping style what to sell, then that might make sense. But otherwise the biggest problem is that you just really partly just trash and I mean you're always just thinking about what do I get. Yes, that's the biggest problem at all with content creation, what do most people do online. The dumbest trash content you get is all the people that every day, what do I know, we've already talked about this. Here networkers want to recruit, who only say what they have for bling bling and for Gucci and e just have no service mindset to deliver other people what but always just want to have. So in the long term, no way.
Matthias Vogg: Okay. One more quick, practical question. We also talked about this red thread, so for me personally, when I sit down to write a text, sometimes it's very difficult in the first rattling through when you're in the flow, even when you're in the topic, even when you feel like writing it, to have a flowing red thread from the reader's point of view. When it comes to content, you often hear, okay, you should read through your own text three times. Actually, the thing is rewritten three times. But now when I think about it as a non-professional copywriter, someone who doesn't really like copywriting, okay, three times I'm supposed to rewrite the thing before I publish that. All right, I'll put the pen aside for now. What's it like for you in practice?
Matthias VoggSecond instance is better. So read through the whole thing three times, I mean, if it's really a thousand-word masterpiece, then you read it over again, or if it's really something where I realize, okay, I wrote that a little bit in my sleep or in a hurry, so that there aren't such careless spelling mistakes in it. Then I go over it again, but this, yes, this German essay-like, yes, go over it three times and everything, so I find it difficult. And I mean, we're not, we're not writing for the Süddeutsche Zeitung, we're not journalists, I don't think we want to be. Because I think newspapers are a completely different medium. A medium that is threatened with extinction among us, but don't tell anyone, but because of that, I don't think it matters. And I think that is people also not so important that text is perfect and error-free, but if it grabs them, like for example Karl Kratz, makes deliberate errors purely. Is of course also again with Vorsticht to enjoy, he can do that because he is Karl Katz, but, yes.
NielsA quick question about that. You have already gained some experience in the content area, you have written newsletters, you have written website articles, probably also for many other instances and I follow a lot myself. And I always see either these smart, well thought-out things or the ones that sound as if they were written spontaneously, out of emotion, as if you were standing in front of me and just euphorically telling me that. Which things work better in your experience ?
Matthias VoggWhew. Well, I mean, I have my private projects and they are definitely scalable no and big numbers no, so that's clear, the joy of writing or output is more important to me than anything else. In the podcast, which I'm also pitching briefly here, no just kidding. But what definitely works better, if you think about it more. So it's nice to spontaneously bang something out, bold, bam. And sometimes it can also work, if you're good and you've got both of those things so you just-, you've got a funnel in the middle, you've got a funnel in the middle and you dump two things in. On the one hand you have spontaneous boldness and on the other hand you have strategic intelligence and you dump both of them in at the same time, so that there is a high mixture. (Niels: Which Powerpuff Girl comes out at the end?) Dude, I'm telling you.
SebastianThis is the Voggs content formula.
Matthias VoggBJust wait for it, I say. Seminars with real props, with such a real, with such a glass that you then fill up with liquids. Do you understand? Fill them both at the same time and it works.
Sebastian: That's this secret, isn't it?
NielsWhen you're only allowed to paint the fences at karate school for six months. Did you learn that? ... #00:24:52#. Is so.
SebastianBut that's also a bit the case at the Check Institute, where you probably-, Check Its is also a customer of ours, who also do a lot internationally, and you also do all the e-mails and all the content there. That's where the outpourings come from, right? So spontaneous.
Matthias VoggYes, I mean I can also-, yes I mean I have to-, my goal is that I write in the voice of Paul Jack, which means I have to look, I can't shoot out anything now as Matthias Vogg. And I mean it would also be egoistic, because I mean, it runs anyway again through a second instance and just to shoot that out, so that I can say, yes I'm bold here, I have the eggs and I shoot out here as I want, yes then I may soon no longer have the customer. Because he thinks to himself, "Dude, the pisser, he should write something for himself, if he can't respond to us, so from that point of view. No, so that's just the mixture, you know, how much humor can I put in, how much political incorrectness can I throw in there, so that it just sparks a bit and people think, did he really just say that or something like that. But then at the same time, yeah just bring a targeted message, like for example, dude listen to this shitty podcast and subscribe, so to speak.
SebastianYes nice. Yes very very nices-, (Niels: Profuse.) Profuse, yes content. (Niels: Productive content.) Well, it's the same with me, I'm not necessarily a great copywriter, that's why I'm always happy when I can give Matthias posts. So I simply lack this creativity, I don't know where it comes from, but. (B: But I know it.)
NielsMaybe not missing, but I think that needs, I feel the same way, it needs significantly more time, energy and somehow I have the feeling, you tell Matthias a topic and what you want and then-, do you know these GIFs where then just someone bangs around on the keyboard. And then what comes out and that just tastes, thank you Matthias.
Matthias Vogg: Thank you, thank you, thank you for the flowers. Yeah I mean, sometimes I sit in front of a text and think to myself, what the heck. How do I write this topic now so some sod will want to read it? Well, that's the way it is. Sometimes I think, okay, hmm, that's intense. But then I get a bit of distance. It's a tough thing when I'm too cerebral, when I think too much and-. Because I mean, when I write a text in Google Docs, it's not published yet. Also again a tip, also again a pro tip. Just write on it, then just write. Just write out, even if you write down I don't know what to write, then you write that in between and then you write on again and so a little bit write out the mess. And then of course you post it completely unfiltered because you're supposed to be your true authentic self. Not really, not really, but then you go over it again and see okay, there are ideas and then you suddenly realize, okay, you can make something really nice out of it. And then it works.
But it's one thing, it's something artistic in itself. Yes, Facebook Ads is also something artistic, everything is artistic, everything is an art or a creation. But there it's just again, you have less fixed controls, you don't only have-, age again an analogy, but it's like when you play the piano, you have relatively fixed keys that you can press in a certain way, but when you play the guitar, it's something completely different, yes. Then you have to play very different things, you can play different variances, different octaves and just on all sides (Niels: Woah.). Dude, I'm going to listen to the podcast ten more times.
SebastianNow the pianist would probably say, you can do that with the piano. I think a better comparison than guitar is probably singing. Because you can really change everything with every way you sing, for example, and for that I think we are relatively close to this flexibility of text and written word. But yes in any case, 100 percent agreed.
Matthias VoggOr a bongo, a bongo compared to a guitar for example, that would be (Sebastian: Yes, that definitely.) so there's not so much going on. Yes, but that's the juice.
Sebastian: That's the Juice, yes.
NielsAnd I would say, in conclusion, you have to write a paragraph and when you hit the enter button think to yourself, Noah tastes, then it's good.
Matthias VoggYou must think, and on the sixth day he created the text. Yes, you must think. (Niels: Amen.) The fingers that touch and then like you Niels ahh, and then ohh release.
NielsYou must be like the marble. Be the marble.
Matthias Vogg: That's why you think so highly of yourself that you have a nervous breakdown, a collapse, and then come to Matthias Vogg and say, please help me, please help me, yes.
Sebastian: All right, guys, then thanks for your time Matthias and of course Niels, ne, that you (Niels: Anytime.) have time, for the podcast and then we'll hear you in the next podcast.
Niels: Until next time, peace out.
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