Sebastian: Are you also fed up with online marketing gurus who promise you superficial half-strategies as a path to success?
Niels: As self-employed online marketers who call the Daily (Grynde) their absolute comfort zone, we have made it our mission to expose the online marketing bullshit. We give you the unfiltered truth about the current state of the online marketing world and which strategies really work. Your hosts, Niels (?Stuck) and Sebastian (Fock), present new online marketing topics in each episode, such as SEO, Facebook ads, content and much more to take your online marketing success to the next level.
Sebastian: Hello and welcome to the NO BS Online Marketing Podcast with Niels Stuck.
Niels: Once again. Hello Sebastian.
Sebastian: Quite an exciting topic today. We received a few questions on the subject. Being young and self-employed, doing your own thing, so to speak. And yes, let's not beat around the bush. Let's get straight into the topic. What questions do you have?
Niels: Exactly. So the first question I got was a bit of the expected classic. Do you sometimes have problems being taken seriously because of your age? Young and inexperienced, lots of talk, nothing behind it, etc...
Sebastian: I think that's a question that many people think about. And what are the biggest points of contact you have as a young person with self-employment or entrepreneurship? For many people nowadays, network marketing is like the financial sector, in which many people like to be recruited, especially at universities, and I can well imagine that in a segment like finance, you definitely get a lot of attention. Let's take a look at the online marketing sector, which is also special. How do things look for you Sebastian?
Niels: Yes, you just said it like that. In some industries, I would say that if you haven't been in the business that long, it might be a bit difficult. So I would say that. That's where experience makes a difference. But in the online marketing sector, where things change almost every day. I mean, there are people who have been doing online marketing for twenty years. That's fine.
And they have also experienced a lot. But at the same time, when you grow up with all these online topics, then - for example. Then someone comes up to me, they usually don't know how old I am, they ask, is it online, maybe if you do a lot of research you can find out or something. But then I convince them with my expertise, it's the same thing with you, that it doesn't matter how old I am. And when we get to the age thing after a few months of working together, they're usually rather surprised and think to themselves. Wow, that's amazing, I don't care. How well it's going.
Sebastian: Yes, I think that's a bit at the heart of the matter. Initially, I think that's what a lot of people think. So I've had a few customers who I've met for the first time, or who have introduced me to their business partners, who have seen me for the first time, so they haven't had contact with me before, and then I've already got a bit of this judgment. Oh yeah, you're the one who's tearing our website apart now, aren't you? Huh, huh, huh. Somehow I get something like that thrown at me. But then, above all, they're happy to ask questions, of course, to check whether you're really - I don't know, I've had to deal with guys like that a few times.
I don't know what it's like for you. When you really talk about the topic. Talk about your expertise, talk about the thoughts you've had and it's really about the topic you're there for. If that corresponds to your own expertise, then they usually realize very quickly that what you're saying is really airtight. They usually don't really need to know. But if you are so well versed in the subject that you can fill it out very well, explain it very well, present it practically to the customer and they think to themselves. Okay. I don't need to ask any questions now, that was good shit. And then it's solved very quickly, so to speak. Usually in the first meeting, from then on you have a basis of respect with most customers and then of course the results keep up.
Niels: Of course, you also have to know what you're talking about. That is of course a prerequisite.
Sebastian: Sure. The good thing is that people like that usually smell bullshit. They smell bullshit. And if you really don't have any bullshit in your words and in what you've said, you're usually bulletproof. And luckily, in online marketing, if you can adapt quickly, you're usually already doing very well. You simply don't need twenty years of training.
Niels: True.
Sebastian: You have to gain experience and stay on the ball. And after a few years, you can be pretty good at it. And that will actually be reflected in your dealings with people. That's definitely my experience. That's why I'm happy to say no, because unfortunately that's a very unpleasant, stupid barrier. Probably for many business areas.
Niels: I've had a case like that before. Especially when it was some customers who somehow caused stress because of whatever. Because of some unnecessary things that were then communicated disrespectfully or something. That you just say, boy, or somehow try to be a bit of a jerk, yes, I'm so great and I'm much older than you and already have much more experience. If communication suffers as a result, then I think it's a bit of a shame and unprofessional. Especially from the person who should actually have a lot more experience and, because of their age, should already know how to talk to people. That's why, if you convince people with your competence, then I think such discussions are so pointless anyway
Sebastian: Yes, irrelevant.
Niels: The next.
Sebastian: Exactly. Here I have another question that has become quite specific. The topic of pricing and drawing up contracts. How we handle that. I'd love to hear your view on this.
Niels: So yes, a very difficult topic to begin with. So what am I worth, how much can I charge? Basically, you can ask for whatever you want as long as someone pays. That's always the thing. Of course, my experience at the agency has taught me what pricing is like. Nowadays, there are a lot of online marketing agencies. There is already an average price range where we are. So a freelancer might start at 50, 60 euros or so, but of course it can be open-ended. An agency might start at 90, 100 euros, but can also go up to 300, 400 euros. So these are things that you learn over time and get a feel for. But what do I actually charge myself now? I think it's basically a difficult thing to say, you just have to feel your way around the whole topic and then start with hourly rate X, or with ... #00:08:06# X and then see if you can drive with it, or how did you do it with yourself, Niels?
Sebastian: So I think the second component of the question is also a bit like drawing up contracts. So the first part in any case. I've done it this way now, for example. You look at what the market demands on average. How long does it take to produce something and what does it cost? And in my case, I'm definitely below that and I'm much more efficient in terms of time. I'm aware of that. You also notice that in comparison when you're in this industry. Months and years, where you can look at it that way. That's why - and many entrepreneurs are already aware that they will have to pay a certain price, which is why they are often not that surprised. If you don't go completely overboard, I say.
Niels: Yes, there are some very strange ideas. So, I have no idea. Just an example. People somehow approach someone and want to run a full-throttle campaign and then they say. Yes, 500 euros including (?budget) then. It's going to be difficult. So you know, that's just the wrong idea of how something like that works.
Sebastian: Yes, of course. Of course, this also happens, but most people are aware that online or, in my experience, online marketing costs money because it requires very specific expertise. Exactly. And that's why it usually works, but I'm probably not asking for an utopian hourly rate.
Niels: No. Just what you hear with all the ...#00:09:54#, well, that's a really extreme level. Especially when you're talking about daily rates, you can sometimes think to yourself, that's really crass. These are really crass sums. But at the end of the day, if you're worth the money.
Sebastian: Yes.
Niels: So I'm no longer one to say it's too expensive or anything like that. Too expensive or something. If you have the return and investment of your expenditure at the end, you know that if you bring in a conversion optimizer now, it costs 3000 euros a day. But it gives you a one percent better e-commerce conversion rate and you have, I don't know, a good turnover per month, then the money is immediately recouped.
Sebastian: Exactly. That's exactly my opinion in this case. If it pays off, any price is okay in the end. If you're so good that you generate five times the revenue, hello? Then take X amount. But in terms of contracts, I think there's another important component, because we're not really doing that in this case.
Niels: We don't actually do that.
Sebastian: Many, many agencies definitely work with it and I think we simply haven't been kicked in the teeth often enough for not doing it. Maybe that's why we don't do it. But on the other hand, it's also because, in our opinion, it always binds the customer in the sense of. All right, you're going to pay X amount for six months. And that also always has a bit of this. Okay, now we've got him on the hook and are trying to extract as much money as possible. We don't want it to be perceived that way, we want it to be more like, okay, we work together freely. We can end this every month. But we are convinced of our performance and are therefore of the opinion that we don't see the need to tie him to a contract.
Niels: Here's the thing about it. Just like you said. If someone is doing SEO and stresses out in the first month that it's not working and is mega fucked up and - why should I have another six-month contract if they're already stressing out and don't have the patience, even though I've told them we always do it, it takes three to six months. What's the point of the contract then? The customer would still be dissatisfied. I'd rather do that. Okay, if you don't feel like it anymore, then we can end the collaboration. We told you right from the start that it probably wouldn't deliver good results within a month, but no whats the point. What's the point of this stress factor and the money I'm still pulling out of it in quotation marks? I'd rather go to another client who approaches me and do something where I might just, yes, have someone who is more patient and who knows that it's a long-term investment.
Sebastian: Exactly. I think in some areas, outside of SEO perhaps, it's also a bit of a safeguard. Because if we look at website creation, for example, which I know. A colleague of mine, for example, who then contractually stipulates, okay, we'll do exactly two revisions in the agreed price. Everything else then costs the corresponding hourly rate. Because customers often don't really realize how much work is involved. What time is involved and what the actual costs are. Especially if, like you, you work with a lot of freelancers or even have employees. And I think it makes sense to do this so that you don't completely ignore each other in order to establish framework conditions that both sides have to adhere to. And I still think that, fortunately, everything has always gone quite well so far and we haven't had any extremely bad experiences with it, apart from, well, minor things perhaps.
Niels: Yes, there is one case where something like that could have been done. But it wouldn't have saved us in the end. It's just like that. You have certain scenarios, but yes, basically there are reasons for contracts and I've thought about it several times and will probably do it at some point. If it gets bigger and so on. But at the moment, I really enjoy working with most customers, with the vast majority of them. There are always cases where there are friction points, of course, but it's simply a trust-based collaboration. And that's how I can currently say I'm doing best. Of course, it's even cleaner legally if you set it up, I get it.
Sebastian: Exactly. Okay. I can definitely agree with that from my point of view. Then here's another rather (?boulde) question. Do you have some kind of protection in case your company goes down the drain?
Niels: Yes, I have 10 thousand Bitcoins. No. What kind of protection? Yes, hedging. That's just this classic employee mindset again. It's as if you're protected if you're employed. If you don't secure your money as an employee and you get fired and can't find a job? That sucks. If you're self-employed and you're broke and everything goes down the drain. Also shit. Yes, first of all. Saving money isn't a bad thing and not just Lambo, Gucci and so on. Maybe you should wait a bit before you start doing that, that classic rich kid lifestyle.
Sebastian: But the Dom Perignon in the club for one or two. Can't you put them on the table?
Niels: You can do that. No way. But yes. Of course, it's a question of deciding what you want to keep - let's go back to the basics. Three k a month as a self-employed person is not three k like an employee. In other words, if you think, "Wow, I've got three k a month and I can now make a fortune here - or ten k, that's not a lot of money either, in quotation marks, if you think about the taxes. In the end, yes, you can spend it, of course, but you can't keep up with all the other tax issues. That's why. Yes, outside of saving money, what are the safeguards, in quotation marks, of soft skills if you like? What would you say we have there?
Sebastian: What I definitely see as a very important component, which is often overlooked when you ask a question like this, is that when you are self-employed, running a business, a small one so to speak, you are fighting on all fronts yourself. You're responsible for everything. You do the bookkeeping, you talk to customers, you make presentations. You develop your communication skills, you build up the expertise on which your entire company is based, on which your independence is based and you actually deal with these topics on a daily basis. And you are also forced to stay on the ball in your specialist areas, in your topics, and fight on virtually all fronts where an employee would be deployed individually. So you're forced to work for five people. Provided that everything works.
Niels: Especially at the beginning.
Sebastian: Especially at the beginning. What's more, as is certainly the case with you, you make an enormous number of connections. You get to know lots of other entrepreneurs. You get to know lots of companies. You establish business relationships that are really worth a lot, so undercover. Let me say that if you were to say overnight. All right, online marketing fock, it's a bit too exhausting for me now. We'll close the store. Then you have to write an email and you have a job. Just based on the irony of the people you know, the people you work with and who know what type of person you are. What kind of guy you are. Because, in addition to the expertise that you're forced to keep alive and increase to the maximum, you also learn these soft skills and, above all, this. Okay, I take a project from start to finish and that's very interesting for many companies to bring in people like that. That's why the cards are quite well mixed. Even without, let's say, a university degree and the signature of a dean underneath it, in your case, you can still get a very good job. In case the company goes down the drain.
Niels: Yes, or you do it like MEG.
Sebastian: Oh. How do you do that then?
Niels: Yes, go bankrupt at MEG due to social security fraud
Sebastian: No. No. Was that a social security issue?
Niels: Sure.
Sebastian: But is that fraud if you are a salesperson? So because of the bogus self-employment paragraph.
Niels: Yes, it was halt - he just wasn't paying attention. Mehmet Göker, if you want to look into it. He could have paid more attention and then he could have paid the money, the social security. That was his-
Sebastian: So I'm not going to go out on a limb and talk about Mehmet Göker ... #00:19:58# like this. I'm looking forward to the new content.
Niels: Yes, he is making a new (?Staff)
Sebastian: I'm really looking forward to it. A legend is back.
Niels: Do we have another question? To conclude?
Sebastian: Yes Sebastian. Finally, why don't you tell us where you get the motivation to scrub for twelve hours or more every day?
Niels: There are only four per day.
Sebastian: What?
Niels: No. Yes, what does motivation mean? I think motivation is once again the wrong term for it, because motivation comes - I think motivation is more a result of something, rather than the fact that you somehow need it to do something. If you enjoy something, it's not necessarily motivation. Motivation is more like, okay, I'm going to do it now. Or I'll finish this now. Or I'll see it through to the end. Or I just have the drive. But apart from that, ey, I don't have anything else on my mind when I get up, as stupid as it sounds, other than do your fucking job. Well, I don't want to call it a job, but do your job. I want- first thing, what do I do in the morning? My morning routine is, turn on my laptop, go in. That's what I like. It's just awesome.
It's exactly what I want to do at the moment. And that's why I simply have the motivation to do it every day. Of course there are stressful days. Of course, that's part of it. And that's probably the majority of days where you really think to yourself in the evening. Wow, that was a really tough day. But then at the end of the month, when you send out your invoices and just see what you've achieved this month. How many people you've helped to generate sales and move their business forward. It's just a fucking awesome feeling. That's just what it is. So and also to say, well, I get up when I want to. If I feel like it, I can go out now, workout, or I can, I don't know. I can organize my time so that I'm not dependent on someone else's decision-making power. That's just a great thing.
Sebastian: Okay. I can echo that and I think components that are still very important for people who ask a question like that to consider. There are people who simply fall asleep if you put them in front of a laptop for several hours. They fall asleep. And they also die under pressure, responsibility and problems that you then have to solve yourself. And there are people who have a lot of fun sitting at home on their laptop all day and working on their own project.
For me, for example, just working on the projects that I have, that I supervise, is incredibly satisfying. It simply gives me a lot. I have fun with it. I often think to myself, okay, I could go to party xy now, or I could go there now, or I could work. And I feel like working. I'm up for it. It's fun for me. It gives me a lot to be productive. Being able to see measurable results and getting better and better in a subject area that I have chosen. That gives me a lot of fun every day. And some people's minds are simply wired that way. People like that are perhaps predestined for such a lifestyle. And it's not good or bad. Like this. On the other hand, we are murderously shitty in many other areas.
Niels: Parties, for example.
Sebastian: Yes, I don't know.
Niels: It's just not like that - it's just not important to me.
Sebastian: It is not a great suffering for us. We don't see it as a sacrifice. It's just fun. It suits our character well and that's why
Niels: Of course we do. So, yes, of course we do take a break at some point. Of course, we realize more and more how much we need it at some point. At some point, you can't do any more. Because then you're just done. You've worked all week like a sick person. For me, a seven-day week is normal. Completely normal. It's normal for me - but yes, maybe taking a day off doesn't hurt either. But of course, if you really like it that much, then you don't care what day of the week it is.
aYou don't care when you work. Whether it's at night or in the middle of the day - it doesn't matter. It is irrelevant. The basic structures that a normal person has as an employee simply fall away and you're in your own world. Sure, you still depend on other things. Companies also have office hours and stuff, but it's, that's it, it's just cool and that's why we do it. So I wouldn't do it if I didn't enjoy it.
Sebastian: Exactly. I can confirm that exactly, and I think that's a pretty good conclusion to this episode. If there are any further questions or anything like that. You're very welcome. Always in our (?DMS) and yes, it's nice that we were able to shoot another episode with two of us reflecting ... #00:25:42# talk between the interviews. Enjoy the episode and thanks for your time Sebastian.
Niels: Thank you too Niels.